Du bist nicht angemeldet.

+++ Heute, Sonntag, 3. März, kann das Forum zeitweise nicht erreichbar sein - wir bitten um Euer Verständnis +++

Lieber Besucher, herzlich willkommen im Patrizierforum. Falls dies Dein erster Besuch auf dieser Seite ist, lies bitte die Hilfe durch. Dort wird Dir die Bedienung dieser Seite näher erläutert. Darüber hinaus solltest Du Dich registrieren, um alle Funktionen dieser Seite nutzen zu können. Benutze das Registrierungsformular, um Dich zu registrieren oder informiere Dich ausführlich über den Registrierungsvorgang. Falls Du Dich bereits zu einem früheren Zeitpunkt registriert hast, kannst Du Dich hier anmelden.

Baltic Trader

Großhändler

  • »Baltic Trader« ist männlich
  • »Baltic Trader« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 114

Dabei seit: 13. Januar 2006

Wohnort: USA

  • Private Nachricht senden

1

Donnerstag, 2. März 2006, 18:41

The Art of Weaponry

An old myth is that some weapons are better at killing crew rather than damaging the ship.
Here is some basic data from the old manual:
Weapon type - Absolute fire power

small catapult - 3
big catapult - 8

small balista - 4
big balista - 9

cannon - 7
bombard - 11

Weapon type - damage at short range - damage at long range (Relative fire power)
small catapult - 3 - 3
big catapult - 7 - 6

small balista - 4 - 2
big balista - 10 - 5

canon - 8 - 3
bombard - 14 - 5

Now you will note from this that damage is different at short ranges than at long. Large catapults are the best distance weapons, no questions there. But you must also factor in the numbers of weapons.

For example, the crayer can hold at level three extension five slots, enough for two large and one small weapons on a side. So take notice, at a distance cannon are no better than small catapults in effectiveness. Don't arm with them if you are trying to take out ships at long range. Your maximum damage is fifteen points. Using large catapults and a small catapult gives fifteen points. This is not only cheaper to arm your ships with, it is equally effective as well. You will also perhaps take damage in a battle, and it will be more costly to replace later on as well. For an attack on a city or a pirate hideout, the most effective technique is to use a cog armed with small catapults and fight at a distance. You will note that if you use only small catapults, you will have nine on a side of a level three cog, for a total of twenty seven damage points at a distance. If you use four large and a small catapult, the damage points at a distance are twenty seven. The difference is nothing at all. If your ship is hit, you are less likely to lose two small weapons at a time and you will remain an effective killer for a longer time. Similarly, using large ballistas or large bombards for distance fighting are really counterproductive, they inflict less damage. At close in, large catapults are slightly better, but just slightly. For close infighting, repelling borders, cannon give more destruction than anything else. A crayer close in will have forty damage points. But as with any military action, the best option is to destroy your enemy from afar.

As for calculating damage points on ship versus crew, all ship weapons cause the same amount of casualties... there is no way to kill more sailors without damaging the opponent's ship. The only important fact is that you need to inflict at least 2 damage points to reduce the amount of sailors. You might have to almost destroy another ship if you use smaller weapons on long distance, whereas the other ship will remain in pretty good shape if you use bombards on close range.

The formula is as follows: Each direct hit causing at least 2 damage points will result in casualties as "rounded down ((1 + 0...0.5) x damage points x amount of sailors on board / max. stability of ship)". It might be a good idea to go for a clean shot, because all shots causing less than 2 damage points seem to cause no casualties at all.

The large and small balls represent damage points. One large red ball represents five strength. One black ball is one strength. So for example, two red and three black represent a rating of thirteen (2x5 + 3). Three red and three black are eighteen (3x5 + 3).

One small thing I have noted is damage to the ship is spread over damage to the weaponry and the hull. If you are interested in sinking the ship, keep your hits all on the same side. If you are interested in capture, spread them out to both sides. The flashes are the destruction of the weapons, and mean less hull damage is done. The "value" is the same, but a better hull with fewer weapons is of more use after capture than a more damaged hull with more weapons. Sailors are killed with both types of hits. You can buy weapons more quickly than you can repair the ship.

Builder

Patrizier

  • »Builder« ist männlich

Beiträge: 1 014

Dabei seit: 5. Januar 2006

Wohnort: Dormagen

  • Private Nachricht senden

2

Donnerstag, 2. März 2006, 18:58

If i calculate the things witch are postet here. The cannon rests to be the best weapon. But the looking at the costs small catapult are in distance fights as effective and ceaper.

It coud be that the results only for the P3 version. In P2 + AO the Balistas have devinitivly the longest range.

Tere are some Towers witch you can't rach without using big Balistas. Maybe Ascaron has egalized the range of weapons in the gold version. I haven't tryed it.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Mandela

ACHTUNG, spielt Spezial-Edition!

  • »Mandela« ist männlich

Beiträge: 2 464

Dabei seit: 19. April 2005

Wohnort: Köln / NRW

  • Private Nachricht senden

3

Donnerstag, 2. März 2006, 21:06

@ Builder

You can reach every turret with the catapults, sorry ;)

@ B.T.

So long, your post shows once again, that there are some differences between P2 and P3.

The highest damage rate on other ships have big catapults and canons in P2. Totaly deadly is a "700" hulk - level 3 with full canon armament. At short range and shooting to an 100 hearts cog, the lost of points is about 25 hearts per salvo.
Also, my experience is, that most sailors die per salvo, if you shoot and hit the rear of a ship.

However, you mentioned it, but I will it clearly say:

Every weapon has a small and a large variant. Every large slot can be fullfilled with one big or two small weapons. This implicates, that you have two options:
To use one big ball or to use a shotgun. For example, 8 bombards are heavy stuff. But with 16 canon you have a shotgun. To say this or that is better would be difficult and is mostly individual or dependent of the situation. :P
Nur der Pirat ist der wahre Händler, denn nur er hat alle Möglichkeiten (business is war !!! ;) :P

Baltic Trader

Großhändler

  • »Baltic Trader« ist männlich
  • »Baltic Trader« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 114

Dabei seit: 13. Januar 2006

Wohnort: USA

  • Private Nachricht senden

4

Freitag, 3. März 2006, 03:10

Exactly the value of putting an international section here, cross fertilization of ideas!

The formula for damage comes straight from the source code, from one of the programmers of Patrician 2. The cannon are best of course in a close broadside. Each pair delivers 16 damage points. But at a distance, they are not valuable at all.

What remains to be explored is the chance of all cannon shots (or small catapults) hitting the target, compared to the chance of large catapults. In P2 and P3 the catapults have the best range. And somehow, the pirates always seem to coax out longer ranges ... X(

@Mandela: I tend to favor the 550 model level three cog for assaults. It has a trifle less weapons capacity (3 points at distance), and is cheaper and quicker to repair, faster to build too. Holks are about as fast as a snaikka, which I prefer for carrying cargo when at its maximum 250 level, for the same economic reasons. For longer distance, I prefer the speed of the crayers. As far as cannon go, in a large fleet battle you do tend to lose a few, and since a cheap catapult is as good at a distance, and costs about a tenth as much ... well, you do the math! :)
I usually keep the bombards from the pirates, and will buy a cannon or two, but it is purely vanity in looking at all those red and black dots. Economically, it would be smartest to sell all the others and just use small catapults, and fight at a distance. I usually try to capture ships undamaged, in any event. And I scavenge the holks and sell the ships. :170:

bizpro

Old Skipper - still on duty!

  • »bizpro« ist männlich
  • »bizpro« wurde gesperrt

Beiträge: 1 841

Dabei seit: 25. August 2005

Wohnort: Langley, BC, Kanada

  • Private Nachricht senden

5

Freitag, 3. März 2006, 03:24

Let me give my 5 cents worth. a 550-cog with all-cannon armament is what I call a widow maker. Almost unbeatable, even in autofight. BUT, when going after towers, useless as sand in the Sahara. You can fire and fire without much result. Enter a ship with bombards - ahh, you can see the destruction it causes with each broadsiide. The tower starts smoking after about 4-5 and blows up after 7-10. Thats what I call busting towers :D
I had a quick look, in the Contest2005 I had collected close to 600 bombards and several hundred cannons from pirates. They made my CV jump when I sold them to the weapon maker. Too bad we can't sell them to the arm's dealer, they would have brought a kings ransom.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

Anne Bonny

unregistriert

6

Freitag, 3. März 2006, 07:16

@ Baltic Trader:

Who is buying cannons or bombards? Cutlasses are only bought in the beginning until the pirates start dropping them off en masse.

I like cannons for all small ships and bombards for the larger ones.

Stipen O.

Ratspräsident

  • »Stipen O.« ist männlich

Beiträge: 786

Dabei seit: 4. Januar 2006

Wohnort: Berlin, Germany

  • Private Nachricht senden

7

Freitag, 3. März 2006, 12:06

@ Anne Bonny

I prefer cannons for all ships to avoid to much attacs by your collaegues.

So long. Stipen O.
Der Schatten ueber Riva wird immer laenger.

Builder

Patrizier

  • »Builder« ist männlich

Beiträge: 1 014

Dabei seit: 5. Januar 2006

Wohnort: Dormagen

  • Private Nachricht senden

8

Freitag, 3. März 2006, 15:07

@Mandela

Ich remeber that in the erarly days when I playt the version wiht addon ther was a tower in Tönsberg (pirates nest) with was built far from land. With the most weapons it was unreachable. We diskussed in the Ascaron forum hwo to deal whit it. The result was that only big Balisats where usable becaus they had the widest range.

Maybe this was canged for the gold and P3 version.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Mandela

ACHTUNG, spielt Spezial-Edition!

  • »Mandela« ist männlich

Beiträge: 2 464

Dabei seit: 19. April 2005

Wohnort: Köln / NRW

  • Private Nachricht senden

9

Freitag, 3. März 2006, 17:40

@ builder

Maybe, I never saw such a turret in games, but I play Addon from start on.

@ B.T.

Of course, the "700" hulk are nomaly the roadtrains n the game, so also in my game. But I like to fight with a hulk, so some (3 to 5) were upgraded to warships.
I prefer to set this hulks full with canons, because this hulks are my widdow makers. But to get the needed number of canons is difficult. Only later I get the the needed number.
Also I use a 3 ship convoy of 1 "700" hulk, 1 "550" cog and one "310" crayer. With this war convoy I can make everything ...
Nur der Pirat ist der wahre Händler, denn nur er hat alle Möglichkeiten (business is war !!! ;) :P

Baltic Trader

Großhändler

  • »Baltic Trader« ist männlich
  • »Baltic Trader« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 114

Dabei seit: 13. Januar 2006

Wohnort: USA

  • Private Nachricht senden

10

Samstag, 4. März 2006, 03:45

Zitat

Original von Anne Bonny
@ Baltic Trader:

Who is buying cannons or bombards? Cutlasses are only bought in the beginning until the pirates start dropping them off en masse.

I like cannons for all small ships and bombards for the larger ones.


Early on, you can achieve these weapons faster on your own when you develop the shipyard. And oddly enough, I don't think I have ever seen pirates armed with cannon before, just bombards, in Patrician 3.

And here is the economic question: With the possible exception of a few convoy leaders or designated fighters, doesn't it make more sense just to sell off the higher level weaponry?

Builder

Patrizier

  • »Builder« ist männlich

Beiträge: 1 014

Dabei seit: 5. Januar 2006

Wohnort: Dormagen

  • Private Nachricht senden

11

Samstag, 4. März 2006, 11:06

I think that the shown details will makt it nesseary to think over the armamnet of sihips. I will take more samml catas on my ships and look what ist the result in figts.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Mandela

ACHTUNG, spielt Spezial-Edition!

  • »Mandela« ist männlich

Beiträge: 2 464

Dabei seit: 19. April 2005

Wohnort: Köln / NRW

  • Private Nachricht senden

12

Samstag, 4. März 2006, 11:22

@ B.T.

Pirates with canons are very seldom, but could be, if Pirates have a good treatment of the player. Also they could be, if you make a heavy rearamament of your convoys / hunters. If you do so, the pirates make also a heavy rearmament in number and weapons. This would be mostly happen, if you don´t hunt free pirates (only defence), they don´t make normal prey on white ships. So, the programm set an uparmament to the pirates to give them a chance to make prey.
You know, if you have a good defence in your convoys, you wouldn´t be attacked. If the pirates have no chance to be what the programm wants they be, the programm set up an armament. It´s also a question of the settings in the game.
First time I woner about it, but Gesil explains it to me. :P
Nur der Pirat ist der wahre Händler, denn nur er hat alle Möglichkeiten (business is war !!! ;) :P

Patrician Jr

unregistriert

13

Samstag, 4. März 2006, 20:17

I can't find cannons or bombards anywhere. I even asked the arms dealer ?(

Builder

Patrizier

  • »Builder« ist männlich

Beiträge: 1 014

Dabei seit: 5. Januar 2006

Wohnort: Dormagen

  • Private Nachricht senden

14

Samstag, 4. März 2006, 20:26

Cannons and Bombards are offert if the sipyard ist able to build Holk's.

To train the Shipyard you must repair Schips and Build new ones. Pending in the repaired and builded Tonnage the shipyard will go to bigger ships. ;)
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Patrician Jr

unregistriert

15

Samstag, 4. März 2006, 20:36

I guess I will have to wait a while. The dock in Danzig has completed the first crayer and is working on the next, a 310 one. They had lots of repair jobs, just like Stettin, Memel and Reval.

Builder

Patrizier

  • »Builder« ist männlich

Beiträge: 1 014

Dabei seit: 5. Januar 2006

Wohnort: Dormagen

  • Private Nachricht senden

16

Samstag, 4. März 2006, 20:49

I focus all repair in one shipyard until it has three Laterns. The number shows how fast the shipyard is. For getting Holks buildable repair some captured and build 4 to six ships (pending on tonnage).
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Baltic Trader

Großhändler

  • »Baltic Trader« ist männlich
  • »Baltic Trader« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 114

Dabei seit: 13. Januar 2006

Wohnort: USA

  • Private Nachricht senden

17

Dienstag, 25. April 2006, 04:06

Zitat

Original von Builder
I focus all repair in one shipyard until it has three Laterns. The number shows how fast the shipyard is. For getting Holks buildable repair some captured and build 4 to six ships (pending on tonnage).


I experimented a bit, in the beginning of the Contest. I ordered on the same day ships (snaikkas) in Danzig and in Edinburgh. Fast forwarding, they launched on the same day. Playing on, I repaired all my ships in Danzig, some substantially damaged. More money was spent in total in Danzig. After about two weeks, I ordered a second ship in Edinburgh. Fast forwarding, the ship in Edinburgh was ready a day earlier. After another week, a third ship was ordered (and the first hadn't launched yet) and now it was ready two days earlier. The AI repaired nothing during this time.

So, the shipyard is aware of upcoming contracts, and improves faster with multiple ship orders in the roster. Repairs only will bring a shipyard up in capability, but building ships with a number on order brings it up faster to its maximum capacity.

Builder

Patrizier

  • »Builder« ist männlich

Beiträge: 1 014

Dabei seit: 5. Januar 2006

Wohnort: Dormagen

  • Private Nachricht senden

18

Dienstag, 25. April 2006, 09:02

@baltic trader

So I learn Somting new ist possibel tu tune the Shipyard faster if I give mutiple contracts. This will help to improve the Capacity in the mid game mutch faster. :170:
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

bizpro

Old Skipper - still on duty!

  • »bizpro« ist männlich
  • »bizpro« wurde gesperrt

Beiträge: 1 841

Dabei seit: 25. August 2005

Wohnort: Langley, BC, Kanada

  • Private Nachricht senden

19

Dienstag, 25. April 2006, 09:06

It actually helped in the beginning of the game. I placed the first order for a crayer around May 26th and the second one on June 2nd. The first was launcehd on July 6th and the second, even though it was not supposed to be ready until the end of August, on July 28th. I guess that is due to a bug since no yard can complete a crayer in 20 days. It was consistent, it happened during every restart. :170:

BTW, the first completion date given was somewhere in late September for the first one. However, I did occupy the yard with copious amounts of repair jobs and, I think, it did help to speed up the process.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

bizpro

Old Skipper - still on duty!

  • »bizpro« ist männlich
  • »bizpro« wurde gesperrt

Beiträge: 1 841

Dabei seit: 25. August 2005

Wohnort: Langley, BC, Kanada

  • Private Nachricht senden

20

Dienstag, 25. Juli 2006, 01:41

Here are some comparisons of fire power with different ship's armememnt. The amonut of cutlasss on board has no bearing on the power. < shiptype

shiptype

catapults

ballistae

bombards cannons power
small large small large
snaikka 8 10.0
8 10.5
4 2 10.5
4 4 10.5
4 2 11.0
4 2 12.0
4 4 12.5
2 2 2 11.0
2 2 2 12.0
2 6 10.5
2 6 13.5
8 10.5
2 4 11.0
4 2 12.0
2 4 13.0
2 4 14.0
crayer 10 11.5
10 12.0
10 16.0
6 2 12.0
6 2 12.0
6 2 12.5
6 2 13.0
2 4 13.0
2 4 14.0
4 2 15.0
cog 18 15.5
14 2 16.0
14 2 16.5
10 4 16.0
10 4 16.5
6 6 16.5
6 6 17.5
2 8 17.0
2 8 17.5
18 16.0
2 8 17.5
8 2 18.5
6 6 20.5
4 10 21.0
2 14 21.5
18 23.0
holk 24 18.0
20 2 18.0
20 2 18.5
16 4 18.5
16 4 19.5
12 6 18.5
12 6 20.5
8 8 19.0
8 8 21.5
4 10 19.5
4 10 22.0
12 19.5
24 18.5
12 20.5
12 23.0
24 25.0
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »bizpro« (25. Juli 2006, 21:15)