Patrizierforum

I have at numerous occasions come back to this forum to ask advice on one of my favorite games and have always had them willingly answered by the many kind patricians that use this forum, in several cases supplying me with both save files, images and all sorts of files and information that must've taken at least some effort to compile. i have also at numerous occasions had to translate german texts, such as the "Tippsammlung" and try and decipher them using my tiny german vocabulary and a lot of google translate. Last night i did just that to a albeit small but to me useful paragraph from the Tippsammlung. I have then compiled what i managed to translate into a more easily understood english version.
As stated it is not currently much but if (or when) i translate other parts i shall post them in this thread so as to alleviate the burden of our german hosts to try and answer all these confused english speakers passing by them every week. If someone, somewhere, also deciphers other parts of this giant book feel free to put those english texts here so we can put them together and help each other spell check etc. also it would be great if one of our magnanimous german-speaking hosts could correct anything if they find that i missed something important in the paragraph below.

1.2.1 Starting Year
The player can choose to start in the year 1300-1400 or inbetween the two at an interval of 5 years. You should at least briefly consider your starting year since this has a direct impact on your starting conditions. The later the year the more advanced the Hanse is at the start of the game. In the year 1400 the towns have a much larger population than at the year 1300. This makes the game less difficult because it is easier to sell your wares (because of higher demand), but at the same time it takes a lot more resources to keep the population happy, since larger cities demand a larger array of products to keep their high population, or at least when it comes to growing it.
Furthermore the shipyards are also affected. Starting in the year 1400 Hulks are already availible for construction and the time it takes for repairs are reduced. Starting in the year 1300 you'll only be able to build Snaikkas, Crayers and Cogs and each shipyard will require a lot of repair work and/or construction orders in order to improve and allow the eventual construction of Hulks.
The strength of the AI players is also affected, being wealthier and having a larger presence in the Hanse the closer to 1400 that you choose to start.
Something else the player should consider is that for every 5 years further into the future from 1300 that you choose to start your're also adding another 7 days onto the starting date as well. If you're starting in the year 1300 that means you start in the 10th of May, 1305 means the 17th of May instead. This means that for every 5 years ahead you start you get closer and closer to the first winter, which could become quite a logistical problem for someone who wants to get a quick start.
In conclusion it can be said that the advantages of starting later is on par with the disadvantages. The main question is how much value you see in getting quick access to (and how much you plan to use) Hulks. For someone who is interested in the ”Turkish Building Technique” it should be noted that 1300 as a starting year has become the accepted standard in competitions and was used as such in the ”endless-contest” and the ”Lübeck Tournament”.

I dont know exactly why but i can't seem to find the "edit post" button anymore even though i have clearly been able to edit my old posts before and have done so on several occasions. in the meantime i shall post my latest part translation here, should the edit button reappear i shall remove my second post and put the text in my first post.

3.1 The Correlation
3.1.1 Trade and Prestige
In the Office, by clicking on ”Personal”, you can see the Player's social status in the town you're in. Trade is the biggest factor when it comes to raising your rank and popularity. All goods are equal when it comes to the prestige they give, at least when selling them. The only difference is that ”quality goods” give more profit, otherwise there is no difference between selling wool, grain or iron goods but only if there is a similar amount of the goods in the town, because there is another important aspect. If there is a shortage of a certain ware selling that will result in a greater increase in prestige than selling something that is plentiful. Furthermore buying goods actually decrease your popularity but the same rules apply here. Goods that are in low quantity and in high demand will lower your prestige more than buying those wares that are plentiful.

Those that now are wondering how to actually advance in rank, since you both have to buy and sell goods, must keep in mind and make sure to sell goods at a higher price than you buy them at. If, for example, you buy 1 iron goods at 300G and sell it at 400G you not only earn 100 Gold but you also make a ”profit” in prestige. The impact trading has on the player's social status only occurs localy, as in only in the town you're actually selling or buying in. If you buy iron goods in Luebeck, you will lose prestige there and if you then sell those in Gdansk you will earn prestige there. However since iron goods are produced effectively in Luebeck (and therefore is not in high demand) it can be bought with a minimal negative impact on your popularity. With the profit you made you can then buy beer in Gdansk (which is produced effectively) which will decrease your recognition in Gdansk, then sell that beer in Luebeck which will subsequently improve your reputation in Luebeck.

Special cases: Towns under siege has a higher consumption rate than normal, since they start stockpiling goods. Because of this selling goods to that town will give more prestige than normaly. Outbreaks of plague and famine are similar, but only certain goods rise in demand during those. In a frozen port the demand of beer, fish, grain, spices, lumber, honey, salt and wine will increase and give a bigger bonus to your prestige. Sidenote: The difference between local and global prestige is explained in detail in chapter 6. Reputation, popularity, recognition and prestige are all used synonymously.

3.1.2 Trade and Satisfaction
Reputation and the happiness of citizens only correlate during certain conditions. Reputation only relates to you as the player while satisfaction only affects the populace of a certain town. Satisfaction of a town requires an even supply of goods and since the player gains prestige from trading it could be said that the two usually go hand in hand. As a rule of thumb it can also be said that workers produce more resources than they consume. It is quite possible to have a high rank in a town, such as patrician or lord mayor, while the population is furious. Using arbitrage ships that fails to sell most of its cargo could lead to such a situation.

Clicking on the juggling jester standing at the town square will give a status report of the general mood in town, but a more detailed view can be seen by clicking on the ”head” next to the population counter in the upper left corner of the screen when in a town. Beggars can be ignored completely in this regard, since they do not consume goods and can therefore never be ”satisfied”. The 3 different groups can have wildly different levels of satisfaction since they consume different goods. There are 6 different moods the citizens can have:
annoyed – dissatisfied – satisfied – very satisfied – happy – very happy

Patrician 3 is called ”rise of the Hanse”, this ”rise” starts as soon as there are enough jobs and housing whilst the population is at least ”satisfied”. Beggars are then converted into poor people, who then are converted to wealthy and so on. At the levels of ”dissatisfied” or ”annoyed” the population growth will stagnate or decrease. This also means that, to a point, the player can control the growth of certain groups. The percentages of the population that the different groups can grow to are as follows: Rich citizens 6-24%. Wealthy citizen 15-32%. Poor citizen 44-80%. Beggars are never included in either of these groups.

When it comes to the town's Market hall it can be said that to reach a high level of satisfaction there needs to be at least 2 weeks worth of goods availible in it. The happiness levels of each individual group will change on its own, over time, given a good supply of certain goods (or lack thereof). Wares typically only satisfy specific groups of people (poor, wealthy or rich) while other things such as wells and outriggers give happiness bonuses to all 3.

3.1.2.1 The Rich
The rich population consumes mainly Meat, Cloth, Wine, Spices*, Iron Goods** and Skins but also require almost as much Timber as the poor.
3.1.2.2 The Wealthy
These are a bit harder to please, they have a mix of demands that include both poor and rich people's goods. Wool, Wine and Cloth all substantialy affect the wealthy, even though Wool is a poor people ware and Wine and Cloth are for the rich.
3.1.2.3 The Poor
The poor only require more basic goods, such as Grain, Fish, Wool, Timber*** and Beer.

Other goods:
Furthermore something that all 3 classes require is Salt as well as Pottery, Honey, Leather and Whale Oil, however these goods only have a slight individual impact on the population's satisfaction. Other goods such as Pig Iron, Hemp, Pitch and Bricks serve mostly in production purposes but are also consumed (in very, very small quantities) by the entire population.


*Spices can not be produced at all, only imported from the Mediterranean.

**Iron Goods are also necessary for construction as well as production purposes of some wares.

***Timber is not only desired by the poor and it is also used as a basis for many other products.


A chart of the needs of each class can be found at the end of this chapter among the "databladen"(look in the corresponding chapter of the Tippsammlung).

3.1.2.4 The Beggars
The beggars have no levels of satisfaction, they do not consume any goods at all but deserve a few sentences since they are fundamental to the economy. When the population of a town grows it recruits those citizens from the availible pool of beggars. When there is enough housing and the happiness level of the poor is ”satisfied” (or higher) and jobs are availible beggars fill the workplaces of factories and are then ”upgraded” to poor people. Once they've joined the lower class they can then start rising in rank up to rich. Just like the poor ”recruit” beggars into their ranks so do the wealthy from the poor, likewise the rich recruit from the wealthy. When the happiness of a class is at ”satisfied” or higher then individuals from the class directly beneath that one (given there is also enough housing and the max percentage of that class has not been reached) will randomly be upgraded. Sailors, soldiers and factory workers are all recruited from beggars. You can temporarily increase the immigration (and thus the amount of beggars) by feeding the poor through the church. A more permanent increase in immigrants would be the construction of a school.


3.1.2.5 Conclusion
As can be seen, many goods do not only please one group of people but rather have connections to several of the classes. Timber, grain and the basic goods not only affect the poor, but the lack of which will have a negative impact on all the classes (if not quite so severe). Not all goods are listed or explained here since the entire effect of a ware is very hard to measure and determine. Some goods are very ”fuzzy” (such as honey) and seem to affect everyone, just like grain has an impact on everyone, but has an even bigger impact on the poor than the rest.
This is why a good patrician should not only aim to supply a town with the most lucrative goods or even those that have the biggest effect, but should instead aim to supply a town with all goods, at least eventually.


3.1.3 Trade and Production
Production itself has its own chapter where all the production-chains are shown and explained, this last sub-chapter is thus here to illustrate that all things are connected. To grow the population and cover certain needs there have to be jobs availible and factories have to be made. The factory require some goods while the workers require some as well.
Thus eventually the player will inevitably have to invest in factories, which will lead to increased demands but also to new wares, that now needs to be transported and sold, which will cover needs elsewhere. Which leads to the growth of both your prestige but also to that other town's happiness, which leads to an increase in population and thus demand over there. This will lead to a slow transition from buying and selling goods the towns produce themselves, to transporting and selling almost exclusively your own wares.

3.2 The Market
3.2.1 The Market Principle
The prices in the game are decided by the local supply and demand, but all towns share the same price limits. Take beer for example: if a town is completely out of beer the price stops at 76 Gold, but even if there is an extremely high amount of beer it will never drop below 17G. Neither price is actually benefical to the player. If the price of beer is at 70G not many of the poor people will afford it, this will lead to a sharp decrease in their happiness which will lead to a decrease in population and thus lower demand of several goods, it will also stop any growth of the other classes. If the price is at 17G the player, as you might've guessed, makes quite a big loss. The happiness of the poor will, however, increase a lot since beer is now very, very affordable. Thus the reasonable thing is to strike a balance by aiming to sell beer at no less of about 43-50G while only buying at a maximum of 40-45G.


3.2.2 The Bushel Tactic
The example of the beer price shows what the bushel tactic is all about, the player has to find a good balance of keeping the populace happy enough, while still making a profit large enough to keep expanding your enterprise. A list of recomended or "ideal" prices can be found here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f…s/?id=275838607
as well as page 71 of the Tippsammlung under 3.4.1 - 3.4.2.

The translator of this text would recommend you to take a look at both lists as they differ slightly on some points. I have mostly used the list in the steam guide to great success but after extensive time playing this game i can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the list in the Tippsamlung either, if anything the latter shows you that there is no such thing as a single "ideal" price. I recommend you to experiment and deviate from the recomendations as the need arises. I myself in my current playthrough (in the time of writing this) have been at the limit of buying bricks at 90 and selling a 95, something both lists would tell you is a bad price. They're right ofcourse, but i needed to supply a dozen towns with bricks to build walls all at once, while heavily expanding my industries in my hometown. I could never buy or make enough bricks.


3.2.2.1 Classification of Goods
As you grow the Hanse you must do your best to keep the poor happy, since only then can the populations of wealthy and rich also grow. This is why it is common practice to supply the towns with great quantities of the basic goods mentioned earlier. Other types of goods are raw materials, luxury and consumption goods.





Sidenote:
Something i noticed when translating this was that Wool was classified under Consumption Goods, even though previously in the texts i have translated the Tippsammlung clearly states that it is a basic good for the poor, rather than something that slightly effects everyone. in my own playthroughs i have noticed that the lack of wool does indeed seem to have a significant impact on the happiness of the poor, much like grain or beer. This is something i noticed when i failed to supply my hometown with enough of it. I therefore assumed that this was a mistake and have put wool under basic goods. If this is wrong of me and i am incorrect in my assumption please let me know so that it can be clarified.

Well there you go, i was wrong! This chart is very helpful indeed, when it comes to understanding the demands of the citizen this gives some incredible insight. The texts i've translated did mention that it was very hard to get accurate numbers on these things yet here we have a very accurate looking chart. It is somewhat confusing, i am starting to understand that much of what i've translated is not only hard facts and numbers but also a lot of "pretty grammar", or "pretty words" so to speak. It does makes for a more pleasant read for sure, however it also ads to the work-load considerably and leaves more room for mistakes and misunderstandings. I am going to make another guess , since the wool-missplace was the only thing thus far anyone has brought up im assuming the rest of my translations have been more-or-less accurate/acceptable?

I have found myself sneaking information into paragraphs that didn't originally contain that information, but only things i've read here on the forum or further along in the Tippsammlung that i felt was closely connected to the topic on hand. The reason i've done this is because since im only translating parts of the book im never quite sure where i will stop in a chapter and move on to other topics i need to know. Therefore, sometimes when the Tippsammlung only briefly mentions something i have explained a few extra details earlier than you'd normaly find them in the original text, just incase i dont actually get to that later part. I'm sure this transgression and small deviation from the original can be forgiven and i hope you can understand the reasoning behind it.

I've been doing some more work related to the translation effort and was making a price list in english, based on the two price lists in the Tippsammlung (page 71-72) as well as the utility chart shown here by Parzival and my own experience. It has left me with quite a few questions rather than answers. According to the Tippsammlung, selling grain for 125 is an ok price, just like i had managed to figure out myself before reading it there. However according to the Utility chart there is no point in selling it below 141 (since no extra happiness is gained) so a more reasonable price would be 145? However that's not exactly what the tippsammlung says. is this utility chart newer than the tippsammlung? should i always go with the info in the tippsammlung even when contradicted by these other sources?

The Tippsammlung also seems to contradict itself sometimes, looking at the price of Pig iron (Eisenerz) it is recommended to sell it at around 1.200-1.300 BUT looking at the second price list it says 1.500 - 1.750. Which one should the player go for? I myself have been buying pig iron at up to 950 and selling as low as 1050-1100 without encountering any problems, however these different contradicting pieces of information, as well as my own experience (albeit based on a different price list originally, the one i linked to further up in this thread) is leaving me quite confused at the moment.

Another case is the prices recommended for Skins (Felle), buying at 850 and selling as low as 900! I have never been able to get any kind of real amount of skins by only buying at 850, infact i mostly buy at 900-950. Personaly i have never been in a situation were selling skins at anything lower than 1.000 was a good idea (as a side note it does seem like selling at 900 gets you a lot closer to the max utility price than selling at 1.000 or higher, so there's that). While this might not be entirely about translating and might need a thread of its own it is something i would very much appreciate having some input on. I'm also wondering if the difference of price recommendations of the tippsammlung differ from my own experince (sometimes a lot) because i've only ever played PIII, while the Tippsammlung seems to be mostly based on PII, just a thought. I do remember reading that the differences between 2 and 3 are small at best, being mostly a difference in language.

Zitat von »x9jaan«

You should know the history of Tippsammlung. She will tell you a part of solution for your problems with her (some contradictions and other problems of understanding). The latest version of tippsammlung was written over years. The two authors conceptet two parts. At first until point 5 is nearly a description of buildings, products, trading etc. From point 6 to end is an description of politics and so on. The second part was written by amselfass. The first part was beginning, given up, starting new by Jarod, giving up, written by me. My part was making/telling the content of Tippsammlung. Charlotte and some helpers overwrite my and Jarods words for giving it an uniform expression of form and language.

I hope you understand what I want to say. I have much problems with your language (25 minutes time for this post).

I suspected as much, when there are many writers there often appear small irregularities like this that seem contradictory but could simply be some misscommunication between authors. Especially when these things take time, once a writer stops and another starts then the new author could've gained knowledge the first one didn't have, but i digress. I wouldn't worry too much about your english skills my friend, i have never had any difficulty understanding you. I also take a lot of time when i write something, but then again im just a very slow person.

Zitat von »Dr. Nodelescu«

I used to draft a translation of chapter 7 (providing for the people), but I guess I lost it. I'd recommend to translate the Tippsammlung in the same order as Amselfass originally wrote it. He started "from behind", integrating aspects that were dispersed to several part-topic but ultimately belonged together after all into brand-new topics on their own.

I agree with you and i'm going to do my very best in order to make sure i stay as close to the original text as possible, however I'm not planning to translate all 200+ pages all by myself. That is a task much too great for little me! Which is why i've decided to call it the "part translation" - as in im only doing parts of it, whenever i feel like it. So i'll probably add a few sidenotes were i can provide some extra information that is applicable to the current topic but isnt provided in that specific paragraph, only because i might never actually get to that later part and thus some english speakers could miss vital information. But i'll from now on only add it as a sidenote rather than work it into the main text. If you ever find that translation you made let me know!

Zitat von »Parzival«

The utility charter was made in 2011 by terry130 with the help of the software P III insight. When the market stock amount 14 times of citizens’ daily demand, the utility level reached its peak, however, extra one day’s stock was needed to meet the citizens’ consumption of the day, so one has to prepare 15 day’s stock in the market to maximize the utility, that is how the prices were tested and defined. It was argued that the price for timber should be 65 or even lower. In winter the citizens consumed more timber and skins, but the price system still work, just provide more supplies.

When the population of the wealthy and the rich grows, it becomes harder and harder to supply all the goods required by them, your trading empire will fall into turmoil soon, so it was necessary to sell the luxury goods at a high price especially in the early stage to suppress the rich and maintain the stability of the poor’s mood. The meat however is extremely vital to satisfy all the three classes of citizens and so as to stablize the trading empire, thus I strongly recommend that the price of meat for sell should be no higher than 1200 .

Tippsammlung from 2010 and this is from 2011, i now understand why it is not mentioned in the book.
Only 1200 ?! My Goodness! The Tippsammlung says 1400 is a moderate price. i can certainly understand your reasoning behind it. Still seems quite low in comparison, but the happiness is probably worth it, yes? I'm going to make a preliminary english price list based on the utility chart + Tippsamlung and post it in a new thread were we can discuss this topic more without further straying from the translation topic of this thread. But one last question if i may. The utility chart says that there is no extra happiness gained from selling grain below 141 , correct? so to get the maximum amount of happiness that's the price a player should aim for, yes? So from the player's point of view should 141 be reached on the buy price (when looking in the market) or the sell price? If 141 is the magic number and it has to be on the buy price that means the player needs to sell grain at a lower price than 141 since the buy price of demanded goods in a town is always higher than the price a player can sell those goods for. am i correct in my assessment?
Is it the other way around? as in a player can simply sell grain at 141 and get the maximum happiness from it? as in selling it at 110 vs selling grain at 140 makes no difference in happiness?

Here is the translated and more easily read version of the two price lists (found on page 71-72) from the Tippsammlung. Enjoy!

I also added the list of "Maximum happiness" prices found in the "Utility chart", good to have them here too i thought. Nice to keep in mind that when planning your economy, if you get too greedy and stray too far from the max happiness price the people will get disatissfied.. but then again if you get too close you probably wont make any money.

That's what i suspected, thank you for clarifying!

I was afraid something like this might happen (such a shame you cant edit your old posts for more than 30 minutes), i use OpenOffice instead of microsoft word and excel, the biggest difference is that openoffice is free. openoffice can read word and excell files but apparently word cant read openoffice formats. Regardless here is the spreadsheet in pdf form!

I also removed the "max happiness" column from this variant, it is probably more confusing than helping since the tippsammlung says 125 is a good price while the max happiness says it's 141. for this specific variation i decided to go "full vanilla" and simply provide an accurate, easy to read form of the original. The different trade goods are in the same order as you would find them in the english game for a more user-friendly experience.

Enjoy!

Hello again!
Thank you Dr. Nodelescu for this top-notch translation you provided! I am most impressed by your mastery of the english language, most people don't seem to know what "denizens" mean but here you show a great deal of understanding for the gramatical structure of the english language and a broad range of words no less. I took the liberty of correcting some minor spelling mistakes (you had written the german "Fisch" instead of "Fish" for example) but it wasn't much. I also changed "per cent" into "percent" (apparently "per cent" is actually just as valid, i have simply never seen it been written like that). As i said, some very minor things, well done and thank you! I'm glad you managed to find this text.