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Wasa

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101

Dienstag, 24. April 2007, 12:31

@ starstruck
@ bizpro

I need your help. Can you please translate the detailed post of starstruck, particular the last 2 paragraphs ( what's the meaning of BT ) because I am not sure, that I can understand it complete. ?(

Thanks Wasa

edit by bizpro
BT stands for Balitc Trader. A P III genius who, together with some other players of the TSR forum, found out many exploits and tricks. Unfortunately he has not yet submitted hos first save - he's probably pondering some more strategies.
BT ist Baltic Trader. er ist ein P III genie der, zusammen mit anderen mitgliedern des TSR forums viele exploits und tricks herausgefunden hat. leider hat er noch nicht sein 1300 save abgegebe. wahrscheinlich ist er noch dabei seine strategies auszubrueten.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »bizpro« (24. April 2007, 23:17)


cancunia

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102

Dienstag, 24. April 2007, 20:09

I´m not that good in writing english.

so you have to live with my bad english :D


But need to say it

Starstruck aint cheating at all.

It´s a trick many players are using. So now you using it to get better number in the contest. that aint cheat - it´s still the same trick.

And it´s a trick in the game. Like many other tricks - many players are using all the time.

also the german players know that. Maybe some of them just a bit sad cause they didn´t think of that first. and other players just don´t use that trick. So many way to play this great game.

and by the way - great gaming you got there.
Nicht aufregen, wenn du kein Spaten dabei hast

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103

Dienstag, 24. April 2007, 22:57

@ Starstruck:
I have not yet found a post that accused you of cheating. Rest assured, I would have had an appropriate comment for it.
You thought of a trick to better your score: all the power to you. And, since it is an exploit, if you wish, that's inherent in the game it is perfectly legal. However, as I have posted above, it takes a lot of ground work to pull it off since anybody with a mediocre expansion will actually shoo him/herself in the foot with the eviction of the poor.
This can be compared to the first using seamless building and arbitrage in contest where population and company value were the key points of the evaluation.

Here is an excerpt of Wasa's post in the German smalltalk thread:
(Like points have been amalgamated)
Some are of the opinion that Starstruck only uses the trick to maximize his points and they undermine his ability to play this game. I would like to make the following observations:
  • I have thoroughly reviewed Starstruck's 1300 save. In spite of evicting people he ended the year with 30,000 citizens, a value that has only be exceeded by Arno.
  • In spite of the fact that I am slightly ahead of him my absolute values for the different social classes are below his. Such high numbers of rich and wealthy can only be obtained by satisfying the citizens early on, which is the goal of the contest2007.
  • Throughout the year I have demolished houses built by the AI to clear building lots and fill my houses. While I did not use Starstruck's demolition trick I did demolish buildings; is that wrong too? IMHO nobody has a right to criticize Starstruck as long as they demolish buildings of the AI.
  • Satisfaction ratings of 6/6/6 don’t come out of left field. You cannot deny his abilities in this game.
  • In closing I would like to mention that most participants barely filled the town-owned houses and the demolition trick cannot be used on town-owned homes. The use of the trick at the end of 1301 is up to everybody's taste. As bizpro wrote: the trick is inherent in the game and anybody may employ it. Obviously, Starstruck's value at the end of 1301 cannot be reached without the demolition trick since, as found out by Ugh! the normal distribution does not exceed 20/30/50.


Last but not least, I think we should recommend Starstruck to be inducted into the Hall of Fame since he is the originator of yet another trick.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

Starstruck

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104

Mittwoch, 25. April 2007, 02:58

Zitat

as found out by Ugh! the normal distribution does not exceed 20/30/50.


BTW, Off topic, I'm not convinced by that. The distribution limits seem to me to be happiness dependent, and at high happiness (well above the 6/6/6 mark; if the scale went that high I think I ended 1301 at around 8 or 9 in many towns) the limits seem higher than 20/30, while at around 4-5 happiness I'm seeing limits of ~ 17/24% or less.

E.g. Edinburgh at 5/5/5 between Jan 21 and Jan 25 1302 had rich leaving when they made only 18.1 to 17.5% of the total pop and between Jan 17-21 wealthy left while making 26.1 to 24.5% of the total pop (then started immigrating again). If the limits were a flat 20/30, both rich and wealthy should have immigrated in these conditions.

E.g. During "crash testing" London 6/6/6 on Dec 28 1301, rich immigrated when they already made 21.9% of the population, but started leaving next day when making 22.3% of the total pop, implying a limit of about 22%. Stettin in a similar test had rich immigration at 19.1%, 21.0% and 22.7% and then emigration next day from 24.2%, implying ~23%. All my towns behaved within a couple of % of this, except the NPT Newcastle which (and I do not understand why) had rich leave much earlier at around 17% despite being 6/6/6. Hence my earlier thoughts that mints might matter as Newcastle is without a mint.

Unless I'm misinterpreting some of my data ... which is still quite possible. Or unless there's some hysterisis in immigration/emigration, which would be a wierd programming quirk and could explain the high/low points. What did Ugh base his proof on?

On topic, thanks for the support. Google is an imprecise translation tool and some words or phrases may be coming out harsher in english than in the German. Some of the google translations do not sound flattering.

bizpro

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105

Mittwoch, 25. April 2007, 05:50

I believe the words of Ugh! were "sustainable" limits. Short-lived peaks are possible veyond those limits.

None of the translating tools available on the web for free are accuracate. Otherwise translaters would be out of business. :D
I once posted some stupid mistakes I found that were made by babblefish and google. I believe I even edited on of your translated posts since it was horribly wrong.
Peolpe can think, "stupid" software is not capable of such action and makes a mess out of all but single-word translations.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

Swartenhengst

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106

Mittwoch, 25. April 2007, 07:05

Just to add my two cents

The problem with Starstruck's trick is that it subverts the chief intention of this year's contest rules, which were drawn up to avoid cheap tricks like the infinite money exploit and had saves evaluated according to the best development of the Hanse. Starstruck's trick has definitely shown that the current system does not deliver that.

Having said that we already had a similar discussion last year with a definite Old World/New World rift. According to many New World players everything that was not forbidden by the rules was allowed and therefore o.k. to use. In contrast to that, many German players had argued that there are things that may be legal, but definitely are not fair play, so they should not be used.
That may well be a cultural difference regarding the attitudes towards a friendly contest. I certainly would have preferred a contest without Starstruck's trick, but now it is here and we have to live with it.

@bizpro
What on earth should this trick do in the hall of fame. It is, after all, only a means to circumvent imperfect contest rules and not something that actually helps your game.

Zitat

Original von cancunia
Maybe some of them just a bit sad cause they didn´t think of that first.


Please, come on! This is just a cheap shot. None of those who criticized Starstruck's trick in the German forum could seriously be thought of that vain that they wouldn't give other players their due. Most of them just don't like the trick, that's all.

Builder

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107

Mittwoch, 25. April 2007, 09:13

Although I have not taken part of the contest 2007 I want to give a comment.

I think Starstruck discovert how to maximize the ritch people in the Hanse. Nobody in the german Forum has published this Solution in preparation of the contest 2007. Like arbitage or turkish Building it's a aspect of the game not so easy to copy.

In 2006 the players could maximize the contest results with sending money to med. This year it's quite more difficult.

I think that for every aim in a constest the players part is to find the best strategy.

If my strategy dont produce good results i have to cange it. If I dont use every advantage I can get this is not honest only silly.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Builder« (25. April 2007, 09:14)


bizpro

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108

Mittwoch, 25. April 2007, 17:58

Zitat

According to many New World players everything that was not forbidden by the rules was allowed and therefore o.k. to use. In contrast to that, many German players had argued that there are things that may be legal, but definitely are not fair play, so they should not be used.
That may well be a cultural difference regarding the attitudes towards a friendly contest. I certainly would have preferred a contest without Starstruck's trick, but now it is here and we have to live with it.

As NewWorld player I take offense of the above and would like to know who, and how, any of the contest2007 participants from the NewWorld has used any of these above mentioned "unfair" tricks/exploits.
I would like to mention that, during the contest2005, the use of arbitrage and seamless building came under attack. Nevertheless, the top players used these "shunned" tricks to boost their population and/or company value.
Have we forgotten the comments of BT regarding the constest2005/6? He called them the "contests of bag of tricks" since the winner would be the one with the largest bag of tricks. He made reference to the contest in the TSR forum where arbitrage was not allowed and, in most, piracy was also not permitted.
It seems that the attack of players who find new exploits/tricks is a tradition in this forum since they appear in each contest after a few months. This year Starstruck is being pounced, who's turn is it going to be next year?
IMHO this is counter productive and may ruin the fun for some players. Starstruck identified how he got the high ratios of rich and wealthy and, whoever is interrested, may employ the trick as well, provided (s)he can build a Hanse that allows the use of the trick.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

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109

Donnerstag, 26. April 2007, 05:38

Strategies yet to be discovered.

I think there are still a few tricks/strategies that have yet to be discovered and employed in the contest. As we build out the Hanse, I think there are 1 or 2 I havent heard anyone write about yet. We shall see. I'm not far enough along to try them yet, but I will when I get there. (and that will be awhile) :giggle:

Builder - Set sail into the contest - The waters fine! :boat:
I enjoy reading about the diversity of the way people are playing the game. I like seeing how the peaceful traders are progressing. :170: The map is challeging as compared to the standard game. I think it is just a good testament to why this is such a well designed game. :170:

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110

Donnerstag, 26. April 2007, 07:05

@bizpro

I'm a little bit confused by your statement. My comments were made with regard to a discussion we had during the 2006 contest, while you seem to infer them somehow to the ongoing one. This was definitely not intended. However, if you want a clear statement: The way you and a couple of others made money in 2006 by simply shifting money from different accounts was definitely something I would consider as playing against the spirit, but not the letter of the contest rules. You were perfectly within your rights, but I did not like that play. Others were at the time more outspoken on this matter, IIRC.

Re BT's comments on the 2005 contest: I haven't forgotten them, as I had never been aware of them. Had I, I would simply have said that he was wrong and can't have studied the contest too closely. Piracy was allowed, but I would not regard that as a trick, although I've never used it in a contest (None of the top 6 players used it in 2005). 2 of the 4 top players in the contest (Roland and myself) did not use any kind of arbitrage, Gesil did so in very limited way. Ugh!, who at that time was new at the game, turned off arbitrage as soon as he realized that it would subvert the contest rules. Ugh! and Gesil definitely didn't finish on top because they used tricks, but because they played the best game, period.

In 2006, at least Gehtnix and myself used arbitrage in a very limited way, basically to avoid falling behind the pirates too much in the first year. I don't think anyone in that contest had a substantial part of his final CW made through arbitrage.

Furthermore, where on earth do you see a "pouncing" of Starstruck? I've just gone through the posts again and have come to three statements to the effect that the posters are not happy with the existence of this trick (made by Hopsing, Larsson and my posting above). Larsson had also implied he doesn't find that trick fair play, which is completely in line of his argument how he would like a contest to be played. No one has suggested that Starstruck was not entitled to use his trick, rather than that he has shown that the rules of this contest are not as good as many of us have hoped they would be.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Swartenhengst« (26. April 2007, 07:09)


Builder

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111

Donnerstag, 26. April 2007, 09:36

@Swartenhengst

I suggest that I shifted Money to the med in contest 2006. It was my mistake that I hadnt read the rules with enough attention to do this from beginning.

I my oppinion the rules forced me to erarn more money then I needed.
200 mio of cash ist mutch to mutch. There are two ways for me playing with erning sa mutch sa posible and get mor points or erarn as mutch as the expansion needs.

I decided to use the first way.

In 2006 some of the top players decided to build a poor Hanse to maximize inhabitants. Because the points where given on headcount. This was reaced by not build or tracking down the houses.

I wonder that nobody commented this manipulation. Me be because only the top four needed to expand the headcount in this way was the reason.

I think that the ones witch find a way to otimize contest points shold earn the benefits. It's easier to read a published trick than to use it effective.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Builder« (26. April 2007, 09:40)


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112

Donnerstag, 26. April 2007, 12:42

@Builder

No problems. My comments were not intended to claim that one side of the debate is right and the other wrong. But I do have the impression that there is a difference on what how to deal with the contest rules, so some of the misunderstanding in the debate may well come from things either Germans or Americans take for granted whereas others find that highly problematic.

As I pointed out, I don't have a problem with tricks that serve to enhance your overall game like piracy or early arbitrage to enable you to set up your own distribution system earlier, while I don't like tricks that are used only to enhance contest points. Keeping the Hanse artificially poor (by demolishing houses) would definitely fall under that group. In principle, I would like a contest, in which 'normal play' (keeping the population happy, don't destroy too many buildings etc.) would be endorsed and artificial manipulations would be sanctioned. However, I know that others see things differently and that hopes this year's contest rules would provide such conditions are pretty much an illusion.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Swartenhengst« (26. April 2007, 12:43)


Builder

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113

Donnerstag, 26. April 2007, 13:24

@Swartenhengst

In backsight the it's easy to find how to make rules better.

For example

If last Year only the company Value without cash had been counted. Offshore mony had no use.

This year if we had recognized how the demolition influences may be the strukture Points would be wighted by average of population.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

bizpro

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114

Donnerstag, 26. April 2007, 20:52

@ Swartenhengst:
Demolition of houses has been used in the contest2005 and 2006 to increase points. Firstly to do seamless (Turkish) building and secondly to pack more people into each town since half-timber houses can accomodate more people. I have yet to see a NewWorld player to use that building technique, and TSR contests explicitly prohibit any blocks large than 6.

I had a look at an endsave. 5.5% rich, 10.9% wealthy is hardly a normal distribution and required artificial suppression of the rich. This year it's the other way round. However, there is really nothing that I know of that could be used to artificially increase satisfaction. So at least this years contest has on "tamper-free" evaluation. ;)

The "cultural difference" is that BT, the designer of most constest over here and one of the co-founder of arbitrage determine that the use of exploits should not be allowed in contests. It was believed, and tunred out to be true, that participants would honour the restrictions - something that seems to be impossible for German contest since, according to general consensus, it can't be policed.

As far as shifting money to offshore before yearend, this has been done long before I used it. The main purpose used to be to reduce dividends payable. So where's the difference? Furthermore, it has been used on both sides of the big pond.

BTW, my memory must be failing me since I can't recall opposition, especially not outspoken one, to sending money, or goods, to sea prior to the yearend.

Team NewWorld encompasses more than the USA and, funny enough, you belong to that group too.

Zitat

I've just gone through the posts again and have come to three statements to the effect that the posters are not happy with the existence of this trick (made by Hopsing, Larsson and my posting above).

and if you read on than you know that Hopsing is contemplating using the trick as well, as do others. IMHO lambasting this goup only serves to generate a rift which could signal the end of this forum section. It took a long time and a lot of effort to get it started. Unfortunatly we have already lost several members.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

Balou

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115

Sonntag, 29. April 2007, 22:19

Tricks or Strategies ?

Hello Gentlemen,
it seems there has been a lively discussion over the last couple of days about whether or not a particular newly discovered trick (and some more well-known ones) are good convention. So let me add my opinion to this subject as well:

It was clearly stated in the rules that everything that lies within the game, such as program bugs and exploits of features in a way the programmers had not thought of, are perfectly fine to be used throughout the contest. In this light, I cannot understand why the whole discussion has spun off at all. A couple of new tricks were discovered and then the discovery was cordially revealed to everybody else (Thank you, Starstruck :170: ). There is, in my humble opinion, no room for anything but joy.

Regards to everybody,
Balou

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116

Mittwoch, 2. Mai 2007, 20:57

An excellent way of summarizing what also comes up to my mind when reading through the discussions of the last days and weeks. It is a great achievement of our community that there is nobody who keeps new discovers secret just in order to improve his or her contest values compared to the others.
We should do any effort that we do not create an atmosphere that could "mentally force" players not to reveal new tricks to the community.

Wasa

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117

Mittwoch, 2. Mai 2007, 22:12

@ Starstruck

I had a look at your total number of rich/wealthy people at 01.08.00:
In your progress report, you count 20707 people, 8,3 % ( 1718 ) rich and 20,6 % ( 4265] ) wealthy. :170: It's unbelievable, how is it possible ? ?(
At this time, in my best attempts I had only 1400 rich and 3400 wealthy. ;( Perhaps my aggressive KI-hunting can be a reason, but is this affect so gigantic at this early moment of the contest ? ?(

Gruss Wasa

Shame on me, that was my mistake the value of wealthy. Thanks for correction. :O

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118

Mittwoch, 2. Mai 2007, 22:24

@ Wasa
I haven't seen Starstruck in a while. :(

Did you compare your total citizens - you have only 18,069 vs Starstruck's 20,707? It you build up your workforce rapidly and supply the folks adequately, you will get more rich and wealthy. After all your contigent of rich at 7.7% does not lag by much.

I don't think I could never get more than 6.5% rich at the same time.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

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119

Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2007, 09:30

Err ... don't know. No one told me it wasn't possible, so ... :O

Those numbers were probably rounded and you mis-multiplied the wealthy. My recorded stats (just double checked from a save) are below. Sorry about the formatting; I don't know a quick/easy way to correct it for posting here:

City Rich Wealthy Poor Rich Wealthy Poor
London - - -168 320 1024 4 5 5
Brugge - - - 165 248 1295 3 2 3
Bremen - - -126 337 1061 2 5 6
Hamburg - -133 390 1193 2 4 4
Edinburgh- -160 286 1198 3 2 3
Bergen- - - -140 422 1326 2 3 5
Oslo - - - - - 148 477 1559 2 4 6
Gotenburg 102 325 1069 1 4 5
Stettin - - - 163 328 1245 3 3 3
Danzig - - - -157 467 1368 3 5 6
Reval - - - - -121 379 1164 2 4 4
Ladoga - - - 126 255 1143 2 4 4
Total - - - - 1709 4234 14645 2.42 3.75 4.50


Everything's well below the 240 rich "limit" and I guess I was just carting goods around with captured ships, etc., to keep people happy. Goteburg's not doing too well of course, but the rest look decent.

I kindof went away from continuing my Patrician game a couple of weeks ago and started a MOO3 largish galaxy instead, which is currently about 200 years in. When I've finished getting my gasbags to conquer the ants, rocks, humans, cyborgs, lizards and fish on my doorstep I'll start back on Patrician again ;)

Wasa

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120

Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2007, 17:04

@ Starstruck, Bizpro

Thanks for the quick answers.

I also started to supply the towns as far as I can with the captured ships of the KI, but my values at 1.8. are clearly lower than yours. Though I had only 18.000 citizen, I had only 7,5 % rich ( 1353 ) and 18,1 % wealthy ( 3233 ). :(

For me it's impossible to reach rough your absolute values in this early phase of the game. Respect :200:

Gruss Wasa

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Wasa« (3. Mai 2007, 17:19)